tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post5434317963791826481..comments2024-01-20T16:28:46.327-08:00Comments on Wordgazer's Words: What About "Women Be Silent in the Church"? Kristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-44999309098986671092018-09-19T07:20:16.562-07:002018-09-19T07:20:16.562-07:00I'm a bit late to the party Kristen but bless ...I'm a bit late to the party Kristen but bless you for this. I was just re-reading this chapter and struggled with it greatly. I've only recently discovered your page and it's been a blessing from a Christian feminist/egalitarian perspective. I rightly concluded that you would have some great insight into this thorny text.<br /><br />This is a deep exposition of the passage referring to varied sources and theories of which I wasn't previously aware. Thank you as ever for being thorough.<br /><br />It's a pity you don't seem to be active on your site any longer.<br /><br />Shalom, Miss T xTolitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07699190688766288776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-71861110168740938652013-07-28T23:08:40.719-07:002013-07-28T23:08:40.719-07:00This is cool!This is cool!Vernitahttp://bestmemoryfoammattressreviews.us/2013/07/19/top-rated-memory-foam-mattresses/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-62971800503745304172013-06-01T01:50:20.104-07:002013-06-01T01:50:20.104-07:00Interesting. I get involved in discussions and de...Interesting. I get involved in discussions and debates with complementarians from time to time and typed up a sort of outline summary of the various "hammer" texts complementarians use, along with egalitarian/mutualist responses. Until now, I had not included the possibility that 1 Cor. 14:34-35 constituted a quotation that Paul refuted, because I'd never seen the specific justification for that notion. The whole article is good, but that little "eta = Pffft" bit is particularly nice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-4522451514829638822013-05-26T09:16:13.503-07:002013-05-26T09:16:13.503-07:00Annonymous, I appreciate your heart, and I'm s...Annonymous, I appreciate your heart, and I'm sorry if I came across as harsh in any way. I agree that scripture must be interpreted through overarching concepts like "God is love," and "do unto others." I do still disagree that allegorizing is the answer when the text is not clearly allegorical-- but I do agree that when a passage doesn't fit with "God is love" and "do unto others," we have to seek another explanation. I also think God is far more interested in our hearts than in our having all the right interpretations. Peace and love to you too!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-12623495760619024702013-05-26T05:56:34.747-07:002013-05-26T05:56:34.747-07:00Isn't the passage referring to teaching and pr...Isn't the passage referring to teaching and preaching specifically though? The examples you give are not either of those. Perhaps more to the point, if a preacher or teacher must use emotion to make a point and cannot back it up with logic and reason, that's when it becomes a sin. Case in point: I was emotionally manipulated as a child to believe that if I did not convert my non Christian friends they would be tortured for eternity. I lost friends growing up because of my attempts to convert them. When I grew up and reasoned that a God of love could never allow such a thing, I chose to no longer believe it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-41192012640869853942013-05-26T05:42:53.154-07:002013-05-26T05:42:53.154-07:00It's entirely possible too that I am wrong. I ...It's entirely possible too that I am wrong. I have learned to interpret "confusing" scripture by remembering above all that "God is love". So for something like this that at least on its surface appears to be unloving toward woman, I prefer to think it must be metaphorical rather than literal. So the explanation I gave is the one I am satisfied with, regardless of the way God may have intended it, because I remember God loves me even when I'm wrong. Peace and love to you and thanks for starting the discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-87175370489153942492013-05-21T11:30:25.302-07:002013-05-21T11:30:25.302-07:00Annonymous, I appreciate the clarification, but I ...Annonymous, I appreciate the clarification, but I cannot agree. I don't think "emotion" is our feminine side and "reason" is our masculine side, nor do I think we should speak in church only in terms of reason, with no emotion. People come to church, among other things, to hear words of compassion and comfort-- how would they sound if uttered without emotion? Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-11048881102035611822013-05-20T22:59:52.142-07:002013-05-20T22:59:52.142-07:00I am sorry, you misinterpreted me completely. For ...I am sorry, you misinterpreted me completely. For the record, I am a woman and a feminist. It is fairly commonly accepted that all people, regardless of physical gender have both a masculine and feminine side. I was merely suggesting that perhaps the passage was saying we should not let our feminine sides do the talking in church.anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-21303193256031757722013-04-26T13:24:54.098-07:002013-04-26T13:24:54.098-07:00Steve, thanks for your comment. N.T. Wright has w...Steve, thanks for your comment. N.T. Wright has written some interesting stuff on the nature of the authority of the Bible. I'd highly recommend it.<br /><br /><a href="http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Bible_Authoritative.htm" rel="nofollow">How Can the Bible Be Authoritative?</a>Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-16937833607302711222013-04-25T07:19:37.452-07:002013-04-25T07:19:37.452-07:00The Bible is our FINAL authority in all matters of...The Bible is our FINAL authority in all matters of faith and life.<br /><br />But it is NOT our ONLY authority.<br /><br />Otherwise we would stone adulterers to death and still own slaves.<br /><br />When we do a bit of theology we see that we are all one in Christ. No longer male nor female, Greek or Jew, slave nor free.<br /><br />Thanks.Steve Martinhttp://theoldadam.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-538148451217053482013-04-23T22:20:41.730-07:002013-04-23T22:20:41.730-07:00Lana, I have read a little Erhman, but I find he&#...Lana, I have read a little Erhman, but I find he's often a little too dismissive of the biblical text as a whole, for me.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-68229794162644560142013-04-22T17:36:56.478-07:002013-04-22T17:36:56.478-07:00Bart Erhaman says that verse was added to the orig...Bart Erhaman says that verse was added to the original manuscripts. Have you read his stuff? Lanahttp://www.wideopenground.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-52468758084675514012013-04-22T05:28:33.506-07:002013-04-22T05:28:33.506-07:00It's so hard to take a definite position on 1 ...It's so hard to take a definite position on 1 Cor 14:34-35. I think it is very likely, for several textual reasons, that these verses are an interpolation. (And, it just doesn't sound like Paul.) But it could also be that Paul was silencing women who wanted to learn but were asking too many nuisance, disruptive questions. Marghttp://www.newlife.id.aunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-22346722737608377282013-04-21T22:55:42.242-07:002013-04-21T22:55:42.242-07:00This is great as always Kristen! I love reading so...This is great as always Kristen! I love reading something that is obviously well researched and from someone who knows what they are talking about. I often pass these around.:-) daisynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-34313275809806703422013-04-21T13:02:47.910-07:002013-04-21T13:02:47.910-07:00I favor the 3rd egal reading, but I also agree tha...I favor the 3rd egal reading, but I also agree that the primary thing is to show they are valid alternatives that do not limit women, so I would also teach the other 2 egals readings.Donald Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07904992652259586383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-24115965430743770732013-04-20T23:15:56.644-07:002013-04-20T23:15:56.644-07:00Annonymous, I'm confused as to why you would s...Annonymous, I'm confused as to why you would say, "Sometimes things aren't as complicated as we try to make them" and then come up with an allegorized reading of these verses which frankly seems <i>more</i> complicated than the text would indicate. Is there any reason given by the text that it should be interpreted in this allegorical manner? Furthermore, if you're trying to avoid offense in replacing "women keep silent" with "woman = emotion, man = reason" -- all I can say is that you have not succeeded. Women are not made of emotion and men of reason, nor is it anything but sexism to allegorize them that way. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-69200890467605002182013-04-20T23:10:29.238-07:002013-04-20T23:10:29.238-07:00Jeff, if you look at the design of both Moses'...Jeff, if you look at the design of both Moses' Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple, there is absolutely no reference to a separate court for women. Or for Gentiles either-- my reading of the OT seems to indicate that foreigners who agreed to keep the Law could also worship with the Israelites. See these diagrams: <br /><br /><br /><br /><a href="http://www.bible-architecture.info/Jerusalem.htm" rel="nofollow">Architecture of the Tabernacle & Temple</a><br /><br />As you can see, there was an inner court for the priests, but male and female alike worshiped together in the outer court. The addition of separate, further-removed courts for women and Gentiles were part of the traditions of men, not the plan of God. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-33373498805727456772013-04-20T17:45:41.501-07:002013-04-20T17:45:41.501-07:00Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say ther...Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say there is no Old Testament precedent forbidding women in public worship, weren't women kept out of the inner court of the men in the temple? Not only were women silent in the temple worship, they weren't even allowed in the main court, or is that just a Jewish thing that developed and not part of God's law?jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08661253413210243056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-8349196449217866062013-04-20T17:43:46.743-07:002013-04-20T17:43:46.743-07:00I hold the quotation explanation myself; Because w...I hold the quotation explanation myself; Because we are never commanded to adhere to talmudic tradition as Christians, (quite the reverse!) and those words are not found in the Torah. (Actually, we aren't under the Torah either, imo :) ) Good, good piece!<br /><br />Incidentally, and horrifically, there are churches (an independent bible church here, attended by some friends of mine) which hold to the literal definition of this verse, to the point that a woman can't even give an announcement or say a prayer. They literally can't open up their mouths. Horrible though it is, the consistency is impressive.Azlepianisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15108194262349469608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-55706160500183824182013-04-20T13:14:18.166-07:002013-04-20T13:14:18.166-07:00I agree with the view that Paul is quoting a facti...I agree with the view that Paul is quoting a faction of men who wrote him in verses 34-35. The words in these verses are contrary to the heart of God and are contrary to everything else Paul states in 1 Corinthians 14.Kristen Dugashttp://www.womanthegloryofman.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-17465118100424294872013-04-20T12:10:38.406-07:002013-04-20T12:10:38.406-07:00Sometimes things aren't as complicated as we t...Sometimes things aren't as complicated as we try to make them. Let's consider an alternate definition of male and female, man and woman. Let's call male "Reason" and female "Emotion". I think this is saying let's not be emotional in public at the church, at least not without first considering whether the emotion lines up with reason. We all have some of both, so we can do it ourselves if we are single, but if married or in a committed relationship, its a good idea to consider our significant others opinion before speaking publicly at church. To not do so is disrespectful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com