tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post6656197959812319153..comments2024-01-20T16:28:46.327-08:00Comments on Wordgazer's Words: The "Feminization" of the Church Kristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-35516913107365144662021-02-21T02:42:46.197-08:002021-02-21T02:42:46.197-08:00This is a great post. There is a current split in ...This is a great post. There is a current split in the Catholic church and the priest referred to "the feminization of the church" being one of the biggest threats. My first reaction as a woman was to laugh at how ridiculous that was as the Catholic church doesn't have a strong history past or present of being friendly to women.<br><br />Then I realize this fight is, in part, about a global culture war, which is very real and playing out globally in many areas and ways. I first assumed "feminization" was about women and read more in-depth from this particular priest and he was not talking about women but homosexual issues. The dialog was that if we just go back to pre-Luther Latin masses and traditions in culture and church control, problems will be solved. Well, one man, Luther, writing one document of complaints does not tear the church, government, and Europe apart without hitting a few nerves ya feel me. Its not like there were no problems in that era. This is not the answer.<br /><br><br><br />I heard the chair of a university religion department say Jesus as a historical figure was a pastor to women and slaves and that is why he was so popular when he was alive. He was preaching to the disenfranchised masses. In my opinion this has changed to slimy hypocrites that talk about prosperity or stogy old molesters. Both want to rob you. Perhaps instead of talking about men and women, they should be talking about "the masses" and what they want and need.<br /><br><br><br />So, then I googled and found the post this blog references, that says women are going to church and men are not and that is an issue. Women are looking for compassion at church and men are looking for power and manliness, and that is why they stopped going. It is true as my parents suggest I "find a nice man at church" and there are few to be found. I believe women are still going because we are overly socialized to go with the program of social control. <br /><br><br><br />HERE IS THE ANSWER<br><br />I believe everyone has this wrong. Yes, the church needs to let go of the racist money grubbing controlling hypocrite crap but I hate the touchy feely stuff too. What I believe BOTH men and women want is a sense of community were you can question and talk about philosophy and ethics and anxiety in this changing world. They want a place where people are talking about real things with thoughtfulness, respect, and depth. The church could be an oasis from the rest of life and a place to help navigate a lot of gray issues we face daily. I don't want to be told what to do, I want to have deep discussions with critical thinking. I want context about how historically these types of issues were addressed from different traditions. I want to let go and trust in the goodness of others and the world. I don't want shallow flashy theatre with tv screens and some phony with a guitar, barf. I want depth as I am facing a lot of very serious things to navigate ethically and everything has degraded around me, including the church. The answer is not to make things more male/female or more controlling/touchy feely but to make things less USA today/Entertainment tonight and more Kant. I want what I am not getting anywhere else and what society needs from religion right now: complex critical thinking, depth, thought and connection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-87096833288069846262015-07-24T21:23:05.086-07:002015-07-24T21:23:05.086-07:00Wow, I can't believe I didn't find this bl...Wow, I can't believe I didn't find this blogpost till now! This topic stirs me and sometimes it feels like nobody wants to address the fallacies and insulting conclusions that proponents of the "feminization of the church" issue keep sprouting. <br /><br />I especially love your conclusion: Finally, churches do need to pay attention to who they're reaching and who they're not. But perhaps we ought to be concentrating less on the ratio of females to males and start focusing more on attracting people of other races and economic situations. Perhaps the real problem is not so much that there are 60 percent women and 40 percent men, but that all of them are white and middle class.<br /><br />I only began to wonder the above lately, as I sat in my small-ish church and noticed that I was the only minority in an area where the local school has half the students born in a foreign country. The only other non-white person doesn't attend any more, as nobody talks to her, but I miss her because she is the only person (in 4 years) to invite me out for lunch after church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-37890528385077190502015-03-06T07:00:19.226-08:002015-03-06T07:00:19.226-08:00PhoenicianPrincess88 "It is not a store produ...PhoenicianPrincess88 "It is not a store product." Don't like it? Find another religion." <br />The truth unfortunately is contrary. Man has taken God's Ekklesia and turned it into his own. Institutional church is just a store front for a professional religious music/worship and speaker/message experience.It is a business catering to a consumer audience. God's Ekklesia is more biblically expressed in a home/family type setting with Jesus Christ as the Head of that gathering and all the Body participating and interacting as equals. (Not stage/audience, clergy/laity, passive participation.)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18136045751894021515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-35591689547052129272015-03-05T09:28:26.246-08:002015-03-05T09:28:26.246-08:00believer333, anyone who tells you you misread them...believer333, anyone who tells you you misread them when you clearly did not misread them is gaslighting you. Google this tactic. it is a confusion tactic and if you second guess yourself it is NOT your fault or proof you are flimsy minded or suggestible. It proves the gaslighter is taking advantage of the lack of evidence available to you to prove yuor conviction. <br /><br />Al most certainly was associating certain traits with certain genders, at least in the earlier posts, and insinuating that the way to attract more men is to put more guyish flavor in the church. <br /><br />Sorry, but I don't recall Christianity saying you should only follow it if it appeals to you. It is not a store product. Don't like it? Find another religion. <br /><br />Christianity, from time immemorial, was a "religion of children, women, and slaves" and of the poor- groups that have historically been marginalized. <br /><br />It does not appeal to women (or blacks, for that matter, who have historically been more strongly religious than whites, at least in this century) because it is feminine, but because it appeals to downtrodden people. <br /><br />If men do not like the messages promoted by the Christian churches, then they can saddle up and find another religion. It is not up to Jesus to change His words to suit some (modern Western) men's idea about what masculinity means to them, should they choose to assume they need to adopt "masculinity" (whatever it is defined as) in order to be proper males. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06953508586857836317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-5586530275587390392015-02-08T17:40:47.879-08:002015-02-08T17:40:47.879-08:00Thank you for this Alyssa. Keep spreading the word...Thank you for this Alyssa. Keep spreading the word that power politics is not what Jesus came to teach!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-63484965391243562622015-02-08T16:27:32.421-08:002015-02-08T16:27:32.421-08:00I can't thank you enough for this post, and fo...I can't thank you enough for this post, and for the entirety of your blog. As a single 20-something female who grew up being constantly hammered with complementarian thinking in my church, I've begun to unlearn the entrenched internal misogyny that came as a result of it, including the idea that marriage should be my ultimate goal and if I don't accomplish it, I am somehow not as faithful as my married counterparts. At first this view caused me to question the Bible and Christianity in general, for its treatment of women that I assumed was inherent in God's word, but the Lord has been guiding me in my quest for the truth when it comes to gender politics in the church, showing me how to truly read and study His word by taking into account cultural contexts and modern day biases. Witnessing and encountering the patriarchy in its silent (and sometimes not so silent) demand for undeserved power is a daily challenge for me, but going after its proponents with knowledge and grace is a lot harder than simply giving up the fight at all, or acting like it doesn't exist.<br /><br />When I was younger, I realized that the world was full of hurting people, and that hurt ultimately came from broken and inherently sinful power structures. So I asked God to show me what was really going on because I wanted to understand, and years later He continues to show me these things, sometimes unasked for, sometimes unpleasant things that my cushy American lifestyle might normally allow me to ignore without consequence.<br /><br />Men and women were created by God to serve Him. Women were not created by God to serve men. Getting the church to recognize that a single woman can accomplish just as much (or more) for the kingdom as a married woman is a struggle that should not be a struggle. But I believe we will always have this struggle so long as we are born with inherently sinful natures. One day Christ will return and restore this enmity that exists between men and women, but until then we can only seek to promote equality by discouraging harmful gender stereotypes and recognizing that both men and women have equally important parts to play for the kingdom, that it's not just women capable of raising Godly children, and that it's not just men capable and desirous of taking bold steps.Alyssanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-36461576157721403522015-01-22T11:12:21.108-08:002015-01-22T11:12:21.108-08:00I have a Blog post marginally relevant to this dis...I have a Blog post marginally relevant to this discussion.<br />http://solascripturachristianliberty.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-bible-on-traditional-gender-roles.htmlKuudere-Kunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537085979461349854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-71561432478699484492014-08-26T12:03:25.087-07:002014-08-26T12:03:25.087-07:00Thanks for your input, Chris, though I disagree wi...Thanks for your input, Chris, though I disagree with your conclusions. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-34082030409635550432014-08-26T07:37:35.402-07:002014-08-26T07:37:35.402-07:00Wow, some of you have a lot to say about nothing. ...Wow, some of you have a lot to say about nothing. The American institutional church should just close it's doors and here is a short video that explains why...<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoOGCNTDo-g<br />Stop going to church, You are The Church, so Go Be The Church.<br />Embrace The Cross, die to self, and Live by the Indwelling of Christ Jesus! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18136045751894021515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-33348501829234857482014-08-11T21:12:10.072-07:002014-08-11T21:12:10.072-07:00Thanks, CDDavis! If you're interested in my t...Thanks, CDDavis! If you're interested in my take on the purity issue (and some other links to really good posts by others on that topic), you might like this post:<br /><br /><a href="http://krwordgazer.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-purity-conversation-my-two-cents.html" rel="nofollow">The Purity Conversation: My Two Cents</a>Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-26340337631708598252014-08-11T10:42:30.932-07:002014-08-11T10:42:30.932-07:00Beautiful and refreshing. I have felt rather alone...Beautiful and refreshing. I have felt rather alone in my observations over the years. <br /><br />And now more articles and books addressing modesty (http://qideas.org/articles/modesty-i-dont-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means/) and the purity culture (http://www.relevantmagazine.com/god/church/how-not-talk-about-purity) within the church and articles such as yours, books like "The Role of Women in the Church" and "The Black Swan Effect", I have begun to feel less alone and more empowered. I believe these touch on God's heart for His Church. <br /><br />The Spirit is covering this generation with grace for a fresh revelation. May we take hold of it and stand on it bathed in grace and speaking it boldly with words dripping with abounding-grace as He revealed it to us! <br /><br />Thank you for posting. Very well put together.CDavishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05617857291635320472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-44625014081527363422014-05-13T14:55:16.367-07:002014-05-13T14:55:16.367-07:00Ad hominem? I don't think so. I was not attac...Ad hominem? I don't think so. I was not attacking you personally, merely noting that your advice, "Be open to sharpening. It's what men do" is really quite patronizing. Yes, it sounds like a lecture, leading me to wonder if you would talk down to me in this manner if I were a man. <br /><br />Since you seem to have missed my point, I will make it clear: You said, more or less, that I was being a typical woman blogger, and proceeded to set me straight about the way I <i>should</i> manage my blog. I replied that the way people handle their blogs cannot be thus broken down by sex. <br /><br />Now with loaded language such as "played your cards," you imply that I am devious and manipulative. You'll excuse me if I don't thank you.<br /><br />I have noticed a tendency in complementarian Christian men to take on a fatherly, lecturing stance when commenting here. I believe it has something to do with the self-contradictory stance that women are both equal, and created to be under male authority. It's hard to truly treat a woman as fully equal when you also believe you were created for authority over women. <br /><br />If it really bothers you that I get to have my say here, you might remember that most evangelical Christianity denies my ability to have it anywhere else. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-13854697716849019132014-05-13T13:17:27.537-07:002014-05-13T13:17:27.537-07:00Kristen, no argument that some men are not open to...Kristen, no argument that some men are not open to sharpening. Spineless in my opinion. Is that cogent to your argument, a red herring, or an excuse to avoid the original point?<br /><br />Lecturer? Rather than discuss the merits of the argument, instead, resort to ad hominem. Well done. Played your cards. It's a loser's game since you control the deck. <br /><br />And some women wonder why men don't want to go to church? Better to sit on the corner of a roof than be married to a nagging wife.Garrisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-75744705237924786502014-05-12T20:36:16.824-07:002014-05-12T20:36:16.824-07:00Garrison, you are entitled to your opinion, of cou...Garrison, you are entitled to your opinion, of course-- but I might point out that there are plenty of men who are not, as you put it, "open to sharpening." In fact, many of those who blog about male headship either don't allow comments, or delete comments they don't like-- and there are plenty of women who give more latitude than I do when it comes to comment policy. This is not a male vs. female thing. <br /><br />For the rest-- well, you can't please everyone. I'll keep in mind the bit about being open to sharpening-- but you might permit me to sharpen back by suggesting that you might use a better strategy than assuming the role of a lecturer. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-78764194889074162812014-05-12T17:28:38.531-07:002014-05-12T17:28:38.531-07:00I enjoyed your blog and the discussion that ensued...I enjoyed your blog and the discussion that ensued until Al was silenced. I don't agree with some of your conclusions (nor all of his) but respect the volume of research you have done, proper citations, and clear explanations for your conclusions. From reading this blog, you helped me to understand from your perspective how the discussion is broader than I previously believed and how something as basic as vocabulary, implications, and interpretations thereof can be unhelpful to the discussion.<br /><br />In the resulting dialogue between Al and others in the comments, it seemed to me that, while most did not agree with him, he was attempting to address each point initially ignoring some snarky comments very close if not crossing that line to ad hominem attacks on him. He seemed to me to be respectful. While some may not agree, it is your choice as to whether to be offended - your responsibility, not his faul. It seemed to me that Al continued to comment to address statements made to him by others. Is this not dialogue? Dialogue even among disagreeing participants is a good thing to further understanding isn't it? <br /><br />Then, you seemed to make his case by, in my opinion, curtly reminding him that this is your blog. One could confuse this for being thin-skinned; that is my impression. From personal experiences, it is very reminiscent of many women who when challenged on the merits of their arguments choose to unilaterally end the discussion (and insist on having the last word, which you did). Another verbal hand grenade to destroy dialogue is the worn out "I'm offended" or variants of such.<br /><br />As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Not so with this blog. Instead, it is a monologue where platitudes and very limited critiques are welcomed. Sad; it had so much more potential to be a fabulous archive on the Net to further your point, develop mutual understanding, and expose challenges from opposing viewpoints. Opportunity lost.<br /><br />Be open to sharpening. That is what men do. And it is biblical.Garrisonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-66525607353400253962014-04-10T19:29:08.041-07:002014-04-10T19:29:08.041-07:00Anonymous, these statements of yours contain a lot...Anonymous, these statements of yours contain a lot of sweeping generalizations and are also not particularly accurate. For instance, recent studies are showing that men and women experience depression at about equal rates:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265358.php" rel="nofollow">Depression Affects Men Just as Much as Women</a><br /><br />Also, many churches (including all the ones I've ever been in)do tell men both not to rape, etc., <i>and</i> to help their wives. It's contradictory for you to say churches don't do this, and <i>also</i> that churches tell men what to do!<br /><br />A lot of what you're saying sounds pretty anti-man. I don't think all men should be tarred with the same brush-- or any brush, for that matter. <br /><br />I also disagree that the Christian idea of God is only masculine and not feminine. Plenty of Scriptures indicate that God has attributes of both genders. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-35005836018619157352014-04-10T16:44:44.432-07:002014-04-10T16:44:44.432-07:00There are more women in church because women need ...There are more women in church because women need church. Men don't. Women suffer more depression than men do. Women work harder than men do: They have jobs out of the home, and they also have childcare responsibilities and domestic responsibilities that men shirk/refuse to do.<br /><br />Hence the depression.<br /><br />And therefore, women's need for Christ and spiritual sustenance.<br /><br />Also, men are arrogant and do not want to be told what to do--and that is what the church leadership does: Tell men what to do. And with whom they can have sex with, and how they sin. Men do not want to hear this.<br /><br />In fact, the church is not feminized at all: There is NO divine feminine. Yet the pagans had female gods.<br /><br />In fact, the church is not telling men: Do not rape. Do not be seducers. Do not betray. The church does not tell men: Help your wives. Take care of your children.<br /><br />In short, men do not need church. That is why they do not go. They are quite happy with their lives and their jobs, and the militarized culture of the USA resonates with them. Men are happy with the status quo.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-68993281187529002512014-04-07T12:07:29.914-07:002014-04-07T12:07:29.914-07:00Julie, if I'm understanding you correctly, I d...Julie, if I'm understanding you correctly, I do have to say that your indignation is misplaced. It is not my article that faults changes (if any)that churches make or have made to render their sanctuaries or services more woman-friendly. This article is an <i>objection</i> to claims that any "feminine" characteristics in a church are BAD.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-5545863932776252032014-04-07T09:49:16.894-07:002014-04-07T09:49:16.894-07:00Any changes that seem like the church becoming mor...Any changes that seem like the church becoming more feminine or (Catering to women) is in attempt to do what some women are wanting. The church makes some changes in an attempt to make women feel more wanted or needed and it is met with an article like this.<br />Julienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-54770837867942116282014-03-12T21:18:16.853-07:002014-03-12T21:18:16.853-07:00Wow. Can I say it again? Wow. KR - you so hit t...Wow. Can I say it again? Wow. KR - you so hit the nail on the head with every one of your points. This article was very educational and inlighting for me. Thank you so much. I will be reading more on your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-64534018489123847082014-03-05T11:42:55.369-08:002014-03-05T11:42:55.369-08:00Hi Kristen. This is an excellent blog.
Can I als...Hi Kristen. This is an excellent blog. <br /><br />Can I also thank you for asking Al to stop with his long answers. Verbosity is not a proof of correctness. <br /><br />In addition, as someone else from the UK, I would like your US readers to know how cultural influenced his views are; they don't represent all of us here.<br /><br />The general sense of patriarchy, even if you soften it by calling it complementarianism, is to highlight maleness by showing men what women are like and then telling the men in church not to be like this. <br /><br />It does a disservice to women and men alike. <br /><br />My own view is that most of what you can say about human beings is true of both sexes. The stereotypes are generally misleading. <br /><br />The incarnation is not primarily about God become male but God, in Christ, become a human being.<br /><br />Thank you for your excellent work. <br />Molineauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17889454294950917556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-6900523400684667402014-03-05T10:44:49.477-08:002014-03-05T10:44:49.477-08:00food = footfood = footSaranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-20967641049738883302014-03-05T10:43:30.075-08:002014-03-05T10:43:30.075-08:00Kristen, I think you've done a smart thing in ...Kristen, I think you've done a smart thing in putting your food down with Al. It's probably best for everyone involved just to ignore him from now on. I've seen him on Rachel Held Evans blog, and on other Christian feminist blogs before and he ALWAYS does this. He leaves these long-winded comments, that are usually longer than the blog post itself, insulting women all the while claiming that he's not really insulting them and that everyone is just misunderstanding his oh-so-obvious point. He's exhausting. Every time I see his comments my eyes just glaze over at this point.Saranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-50088778767203244352014-03-05T09:47:13.592-08:002014-03-05T09:47:13.592-08:00Al, I recognize your right to reply to the comment...Al, I recognize your right to reply to the comments made to you, but at this point you are hijacking my blog. This blog is not here to give you a platform to espouse and defend your own views. If you want to explain your views in this detail and to this length, you really should be doing it on your own blog. You have said this is your last comment; good. Make it so.<br /><br />I am not going to reply at length to your lengthy and numerous comments except to say a few things:<br /><br />1. Your interpretation of certain passages of scripture is just that: an interpretation, and one I don't subscribe to. I don't believe in the priesthood of the pastor but in the priesthood of the believer.<br /><br />2. You seem to have completely misunderstood what I meant by participation in church. I will simply say that an interactive church service is simply not the same as a participatory church. A participatory church is one where laypeople are participating in service in the church, i.e., giving teachings & leading Bible studies, not merely standing up, sitting down, etc., when commanded by liturgy.<br /><br />3. Many of your ideas come from Aristotle's influence on Western thinking and are not biblical at all. <br /><br />4. The linking of women to children due to physical characteristics is neither more logical nor more fair than saying something like, "Because men have more musculature, more body hair and deeper, more grunt-like voices than women, men are more simian in nature, whereas women represent the fullness of civilized humanity."<br /><br />5. In my view, most of what you talk about in the way the sexes are generally treated in society is cultural and is related to the patriarchy and the lingering gender stereotypes and role socializations that it has imposed on society. You are free to disagree, but that view makes way more sense to me than yours does.<br /><br />If you have a blog, or want to start one, you are welcome to supply a link, and we can discuss your views more in your own forum. But this isn't your personal forum. I wish you well.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-92146840991727271982014-03-05T07:54:39.199-08:002014-03-05T07:54:39.199-08:00Al says that pastors perform "a role akin to ...Al says that pastors perform "a role akin to that of the angels". lol<br /><br />His words in all their breadth lie naked with a desire for power. But power is treacherous.<br /><br />Beware, Al. Gaining the world but losing the soul is not an aphorism.Patricenoreply@blogger.com