tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post8772355093054139003..comments2024-01-20T16:28:46.327-08:00Comments on Wordgazer's Words: Is the Bible a "Toxic" Book?Kristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-21839740134709838812015-01-22T11:21:55.445-08:002015-01-22T11:21:55.445-08:00I am a Bible literalist, but agree the Bible doesn...I am a Bible literalist, but agree the Bible doesn't support Sexism or Homophobia.<br /><br />http://solascripturachristianliberty.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.htmlKuudere-Kunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06537085979461349854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-38581453710793693662011-12-21T09:45:13.571-08:002011-12-21T09:45:13.571-08:00Thank you, Politics. I appreciate your kind words...Thank you, Politics. I appreciate your kind words.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-6612153841321413362011-12-21T06:00:55.313-08:002011-12-21T06:00:55.313-08:00Kristen,
Since I am no longer welcome on "Co...Kristen,<br /><br />Since I am no longer welcome on "Commandments of Men", I wanted you to know that I've found your comments anything but "too strong" and offensive. <br /><br />I don't think you are afraid to truly think and it is evident in your writing.<br /><br />I may be commenting on your posts later, but I wanted you to know that I appreciate your thoughtful tone.The Politics Of Heavenhttp://thepoliticsofheaven.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-46897401453448977632011-12-18T13:22:17.877-08:002011-12-18T13:22:17.877-08:00Another Believer-- I agree with all you have said ...Another Believer-- I agree with all you have said in your last post above. I believe we may differ with one another on exactly where "the center where God is standing" is in some areas. I believe the way to hold the Bible in highest regard is to let it be the book it is, not what we want it to be. That means we have to try our best to understand first what the message is that was intended by the original writer and understood by the original audience-- and understand it as a narrative of God's creation and redemption of humanity. Sometimes that means that I'm going to differ strongly with traditional or evangelical/fundamentalist understandings of what the Bible is saying. I particularly disagree in the area of "gender roles." But it's not because I don't hold the Bible in high regard. I hope that makes my position clearer.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-8921050290841579112011-12-18T01:08:35.837-08:002011-12-18T01:08:35.837-08:00Kristin, I also think Christianity is about Christ...Kristin, I also think Christianity is about Christ and the Father and Holy Spirit. The Bible is God's primary communication tool (not a god) to us. Without it we would not know - about Christ and the Father God and Holy Spirit... - We would not know what the Gospel is. The Bible says that we are to continuously meditate on the scriptures. The Bible is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. The Bible tells us to test all things against it. <br /><br />The problem with the Pharisees was not that they searched the scriptures. The problem was that they never came to Jesus. In fact, Jesus used the scriptures to rebuke the Pharisees. Additionally, he was constantly referencing the scriptures to direct his life and to Shepherd other people. <br /><br />We all put God into box because we are imperfect human beings. To help minimize our box building, we need to be in prayer, be seeking to be led by the Holy Spirit, be studying the scriptures and be in community with other believers where all are fulfilling their responsibility to be iron sharpening iron.<br /><br />Unfortunately, too many people choose to ignore or distort parts of the Bible to suit there desires or conceptions of what is right or wrong. Some do so and move in a very legalistic direction. Others do so and move in a very liberal direction where anything goes as long as it fits into their world view. Instead, we need to move from these extremes and be in the center where God is standing.Another Believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-54529862222535766462011-12-17T14:55:09.707-08:002011-12-17T14:55:09.707-08:00Glad you didn't do that as a comment, Dave. ;-...Glad you didn't do that as a comment, Dave. ;-)<br /><br />I thought you had stopped posting at Peaceful Turmoil?Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-72141103634098346762011-12-17T14:38:18.874-08:002011-12-17T14:38:18.874-08:00Hello again Kristen. Rather than respond in these ...Hello again Kristen. Rather than respond in these little comment boxes, I've developed my thoughts on the matter <a href="http://peacefulturmoil.blogspot.com/2011/12/gods-nature-as-revealed-by-jesus-and.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-82283508820805313242011-12-17T11:04:36.833-08:002011-12-17T11:04:36.833-08:00Dave, there's also a certain "proof of th...Dave, there's also a certain "proof of the pudding is in the eating" justification to my position. This way of looking at the Bible tends to lead to a way of living Christianity that is a kinder, more open, more loving, happier way of "doing" the faith. In other words, it works. I am inclined to think that since it works in this way, it probably brings us closer to an understanding of the real nature of the Divine.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-7587444231635269702011-12-17T11:00:29.956-08:002011-12-17T11:00:29.956-08:00Dave, I am not claiming I have an "objective&...Dave, I am not claiming I have an "objective" view. Who can claim that? I am saying that for Christians, the focus of their faith should be Jesus Himself; and that therefore a reading of the Bible that interprets it in the light of His life, teachings, death and Resurrection above all, is a particularly Christian way to read the Bible.<br /><br />Another Believer, you can have your methods of reading the text, and I can have mine. I do think that Christianity is about Christ and the Father God and Holy Spirit, more than it's about "whatever the Bible appears to me to say must be what it says-- and that must be right and good, no matter how wrong it seems." We have to be careful not to make the Bible itself into our god. Jesus said to the Pharisees, "You search the Scriptures, thinking that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that point to me, but you do not come to me." Our relationship with Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit is paramount. Be careful lest you, too, put God into a box-- the box of your perceptions of what the Bible says, based on what it appears to mean to your modern ears 2000-5000 years later, half a globe and several ancient languages away.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-45287840719707433842011-12-17T06:08:12.784-08:002011-12-17T06:08:12.784-08:00Kristen, thank you for your reply. It seems that t...Kristen, thank you for your reply. It seems that the issue revolves around what the individual wants or needs. Those who can't stand the idea of people "getting away" with something find comfort in a God who executes some kind of wrath or justice. Those who see "sin" as its own punishment find the idea of a God who pours wrath on top of this as vindictive. This is based on my own view of the Bible and of the Biblical God, that we accommodate its content AND the overall narrative to suit us.* <br /><br />Whether we translate the term as wrath or justice, in the Old Testament wrath involved plagues, rape and murder at the hands of a foe appointed by God. Many of these events were taken to be historical by the Hebrew, and some are still taken to be so today. So it isn't all metaphor. Just because it makes some people squirm today doesn't mean it hasn't shaped and formed the Church Universal and its doctrines and interpretations for most of its history.<br /><br />People can talk about the emphasis on love, but that is a slippery word that also changes from one historical and cultural context to another. I am betting the ancient Hebrew people and the early Christian communities would have seen the periods of God's fury against the Israelities as a manifestation of that love, like a parent beating--er, spanking--er, correcting a child. <br /><br />Just focusing on a particular contemporary reading of the canonical Gospels as a reference to judge everything else in the Bible doesn't really constitute an objective Biblical narrative and more than focusing on some other part of the Bible does, especially when the same themes are present throughout. One can just as easily see Jesus as fulfilling the divisive and wrathful nature of God in the OT as one can try to see hints of an evolution toward an all peaceful and loving Jesus in the OT. "Another Believer" illustrates that pretty well.<br /><br />*for example, someone with a Buddhist bent might say that the wrath and mercy of God are anthropomorphic analogies for karma and not really conscious, intentional judgments or acts of reconciliation by some cosmic king on a celestial throne.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-67158363590346868572011-12-17T05:41:55.686-08:002011-12-17T05:41:55.686-08:00Haven't hear Strobel and McDowell invoked in a...Haven't hear Strobel and McDowell invoked in a long time.Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-24819600009643898352011-12-16T23:28:27.140-08:002011-12-16T23:28:27.140-08:00It appears that there are a lot of justifications ...It appears that there are a lot of justifications and conclusions being made that are based on what seems or feels right or wrong, rational or non-rational, consistent or in-consistent. By using this process, we put God into a box defined by our values and perspectives. Instead, we need to be seeking to follow what holds the most amount of truth. <br /><br />There is no body of work that can make the claims of authenticity, accuracy and divine inspiration that the Bible does. No other written work has the supporting evidence in the areas of archeology, manuscript documentation, prophetic fulfillment, and consistency among so many authors as the Bible. The flaws are not in the content of God's Word, they are in the interpretation of God's Word by flawed human beings. <br /><br />An interesting quality about the Bible is that it is shallow enough for a child to stand in, yet deep enough for a theologian to drowned in. Sometimes people are so caught up in dissecting the Bible's sub categories/themes (grace, mercy, justice, wrath, anger, condemnation, sin, etc.) that they miss the simple overarching theme - Love.<br /><br />Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your being and to love your neighbor as yourself. All the laws hang on these two commandments. <br /><br />If people grasp onto these two commandments, the next challenge they face is to not define them through secular glasses. They need to seek these commandments through the eyes of the holy, perfect, complete God. Unlike humans, the God of the Bible is perfectly balanced in all of his qualities. Because we are not perfectly balanced in all ways as God is, we see what we believe are inconsistencies or inappropriateness on God's part reject him and the Bible in part or totality. <br /><br />Based on the unmatched verifiability of the validity of the Bible (see the book The Case for Christ or the book Evidence that Demands a Verdict), if a person chooses to believe that the Bible is only a narrative of history and chooses to follow some other path, that person is choosing to base their life on something with less credibility and evidence (another religion, world philosophy, personal perspective, etc). Making this choice is not a rational decision.<br /><br />Instead of deciding to discount the Bible as being less than it claims to be, people need to realize that the Bible is not flawed. What is flawed is our interpretation and we must continuously seek to check our interpretation through the filter of the perfect God of the Bible. We also must be willing to accept that just as a child cannot understand many of the concepts that an adult understands, we are not able to understand all that God knows. We must also accept that just because something doesn't makes sense to us, doesn't mean we can say it isn't true. We all believe gravity is true without understanding however gravity exists. It would be irrational to conclude that gravity doesn't exist just because we don't completely understand it. Yet, people are willing to do this with God and the Bible.Another Believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-2351318996704114362011-12-16T23:14:16.619-08:002011-12-16T23:14:16.619-08:00So in conclusion-- yes, I feel that a focus on the...So in conclusion-- yes, I feel that a focus on the Bible as narrative helps us to view all the texts together, rather than isolating them from one another-- and thus helps us not to take the passages on "wrath" out of balance with the passages on mercy and love.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-82219304900272980852011-12-16T23:01:50.174-08:002011-12-16T23:01:50.174-08:00Dave, we seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I ...Dave, we seem to be talking at cross-purposes. I was talking about how Christians should act towards other human beings-- in inclusiveness not divisiveness, and in mercy not judgment, since Jesus taught inclusiveness and mercy. You seem to be talking instead about the character of God as shown in the Bible. <br /><br />I don't actually recall any place where Jesus talks about God hating. 1 John says "God is love." Love encompasses no hate. Passages such as "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" are misunderstood. They represent a certain idiomatic Hebrew way of speaking and are not about actual "hate."<br /><br />As for "wrath," there is an issue about what that word means. My understanding is that it's an old-fashioned word that we now also misunderstand. In the time the KJV was written (using the word "wrath"; we don't find that word in more modern translations), the word was commonly used to mean justice. A judge administering a sentence on a murderer was demonstrating the "wrath" of the king. It didn't mean the king was in a rage. It is my understanding also that the Hebrew and Greek words translated as "wrath" also convey this same idea-- not of anger/rage, but of the administration of justice.<br /><br />I agree there is a dialectic between justice and mercy in the Bible. What I don't feel obligated to believe is that a good God would have no sense of justice, or that God's love means God has to just overlook every wrong. We would all say that there is no justice in overlooking the wrongdoing of rapists or child molesters-- where is the love for the victims, in such an attitude? <br /><br />I believe there <i>is</i> some sort of eternal justice that will be administered, where those who have harmed others will need to have their eyes opened to see themselves and what they have done. What exactly that will look like, I don't think we can know. <br /><br />As far as how the Bible speaks of eternity and punishment, I think most of it is in metaphorical pictures: it is mostly set forth in Jesus' parables and in the highly symbolic language of the Book of Revelation. I don't know exactly what eternal justice would look like, but the doctrine of accommodation, which I have explained in the post immediately prior to this one, gives a good explanation as to why Jesus and the writer of Revelation would put these ideas in terms that their original listeners/readers would have understood. What eternal justice really looks like may be as far beyond our understanding as what eternal mercy really looks like. But we, as Christians, as far as it depends on us, are called in our daily living with others, to be merciful, inclusive, kind and loving-- not holier-than-thou, divisive, hateful and judgmental. That much, at least, is clear.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-71012638455042938092011-12-16T16:35:27.006-08:002011-12-16T16:35:27.006-08:00And by the way, I would LOVE to see some explanati...And by the way, I would LOVE to see some explanation for God hating, being angry, etc, that is compatible with a God of infinite love and patience that isn't just some awkward and inconsistent anthropomorphic analogy like "God is a strict but loving father."<br /><br />And for those who might not know my history with the blog author, I am not trying to argue with Kristen for the sake of proving her wrong, only to point out that just changing glasses doesn't get rid of the problems she raised in her original post.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-35431897089252748132011-12-16T12:48:07.470-08:002011-12-16T12:48:07.470-08:00That doesn't follow. I don't see how "...That doesn't follow. I don't see how "wrath" is the same as "legalism". Jesus talks about wrath and judgment. The apostles talk about wrath and judgment. The problem is with divine wrath in the first place, the idea of God hating and punishing. Jesus does not deny this, and he never says mercy always trumps wrath for everyone. Only those who submit to God are spared. That's the same line as in the Old Testament as part of the wrath/mercy dialectic that is supposed to bring people closer to God through obedience. <br /><br />But for everyone else, they are to be killed before him, cast into outer darkness, left wailing in the fiery pit, etc. God may lament such judgment, but no where is it denied. Soooo, my criticism is left untouched. Divisiveness and wrath have been just as much a part of normative Christianity as anything. Again, one can deny, de-emphasize, or otherwise try to explain it away (as symbolism or allegory, etc.), but it is central to the whole set of Biblical themes that shape its overall narrative.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-42781670221446041112011-12-16T12:13:08.366-08:002011-12-16T12:13:08.366-08:00Dave, you make a good point-- but it is not "...Dave, you make a good point-- but it is not "ignoring one aspect of a narrative or de-emphasizing it or rationalizing it away" to acknowledge that in the New Testament the theme of "mercy triumphs over judgement" is pervasive, and it provides a strong [i]reason[/i], not rationalization, to understand that in the wrath-vs-mercy dialectic you have identified, mercy does indeed triumph. We see Jesus eating with the "tax collectors and sinners," and understand that the condemnation of this inclusiveness comes from the Pharisees, the legalists, and that we are instead to follow in Christ's footsteps. Christians may still choose expressions of the faith that are Pharisaical, but they do so in violation of the dynamic of the Kingdom that Jesus espoused. Divisiveness over inclusiveness, legalism over love, are part of human nature and probably will always be found in religious expression of any kind-- but that does not make them the normative teaching of Christianity as Christ meant it to be.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-3401466649090257432011-12-16T09:28:19.753-08:002011-12-16T09:28:19.753-08:00correction: "the once-and-future divine judgm...correction: "the once-and-future divine judgment"tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-53621025791149435632011-12-16T09:23:44.173-08:002011-12-16T09:23:44.173-08:00Of course, there is still the issue of finding the...Of course, there is still the issue of finding the overall narrative troubling, because there is no one definitive and irrefutable and undeniable way of identifying a single theme. For example, one theme that runs through the entire Bible is the dialectic between wrath and mercy, and this is no less true in the Gospels or letters of the New Testament. <br /><br />If you reject the idea of indignation, divisiveness, retribution, and divine wrath, which are consistently portrayed as the once-and-future the divine judgment for which the poor and oppressed are waiting and hoping, then people can still very well find even a narrative view of the Bible as part of a "misery-inducing way of practicing their faith that they eventually had to abandon or be destroyed by." <br /><br />That is, there is still a potentially valid criticism of ignoring one aspect of a narrative or de-emphasizing it or rationalizing it away in favor of another, leaving your central question open and relevant: "Are those of us who follow a gentler version of Christianity really just deceiving ourselves about the real truth of what our religion is about?"tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-88287302697416718222011-12-14T14:10:50.316-08:002011-12-14T14:10:50.316-08:00Good points, Mike! Thanks for reading!Good points, Mike! Thanks for reading!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-2215168602569631732011-12-14T06:37:00.873-08:002011-12-14T06:37:00.873-08:00I understand literalist Christians, I used to be o...I understand literalist Christians, I used to be one, but the literalist atheists are the ones that baffle me.<br /><br />I have noticed that frequently if a literalist, evangelical Christian leaves the faith, that they can easily end up being a literalist, evangelical atheist.<br /><br />Not being a Christian any more, I can take the Bible, along with other works, and glean from it what I will. <br /><br />Is the Bible toxic? Some parts could be dangerous, but that applies to nearly everything. We need water to live, but it is possible to kill yourself by using it improperly, even drinking too much of it can kill you. It all depends on the reader. People saying the Bible is toxic or dangerous remind me of the same people who thought Dungeons and Dragons would lead kids to become evil Satanists, or that video games make kids more violent. Millions of people read the and revere the Bible and live peacefully, just like most kids who played Dungeons and Dragons grew up to be perfectly normal members of society, and the same for the majority of kids that play video games.Mike aka MonolithTMAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385705390882035829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-86333862016485859062011-12-07T17:05:19.873-08:002011-12-07T17:05:19.873-08:00Don, I agree. We must be led by the Spirit. But ...Don, I agree. We must be led by the Spirit. But if we're using the canon to test what we believe the Spirit is saying, it doesn't help if we're misunderstanding what the canon is actually about. . . <br /><br />Ann, I'm not sure why N.T. Wright would be considered emergent, as he is, I believe, an Anglican bishop-- but he has some very good things to say. What is "emergent," though, is all over the map and kind of hard to define, except that we can be sure it isn't fundamentalist! Anyway, I'm very glad my words were of help to you!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-58664141361886162942011-12-05T09:01:17.024-08:002011-12-05T09:01:17.024-08:00Kristen,
Thanks so much for this. I am currently i...Kristen,<br />Thanks so much for this. I am currently in the camp of not being able to even read my bible because of the deep sense of betrayal I feel. I gave my heart to all the teachings therein and have come up empty, just as you observed. I am leaning toward the bible as a narrative because otherwise it is just full of bondage for me. <br />I just met with my pastor and told him that I can't come to church for this very reason. They hold scripture and tradition in high esteem and it was giving me anxiety to be in that place.<br />Prior, our Sunday School studied the emergent church as something that our neighbors might hold to. I found that I had way more in common with that subject than the doctrine of my church. The next day I decided I had to leave. By the way, NT Wright was mentioned as one of the proponents. I will definitely check him out.<br />Thanks for putting into words exactly how I am feeling.Annnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-13336710406237612902011-12-05T06:27:16.633-08:002011-12-05T06:27:16.633-08:00My take is that we believers are to follow the Spi...My take is that we believers are to follow the Spirit. And we use the canon to test things we think may be from the Spirit.<br /><br />Some do not like this, as the Spirit can tell different things to different people. But this is similar to giving different gifts to different people.Donald Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07904992652259586383noreply@blogger.com