tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post6173195146693493534..comments2024-01-20T16:28:46.327-08:00Comments on Wordgazer's Words: "Don't Talk About It"Kristenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-87606351018692487242017-09-10T11:56:32.748-07:002017-09-10T11:56:32.748-07:00That's correct, Steve. He didn't listen, h...That's correct, Steve. He didn't listen, he didn't try to listen. While I was nervously stammering out my viewpoint, it seemed he was already thinking about what sin or problem I was having that was causing me to approach him like this. I know I can't actually know what he was thinking, but his manner and the speed of his response-- the fact he interrupted me, the fact he didn't address at all what I actually said-- leads me to infer this. Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-20829833616194896412017-09-10T04:37:36.720-07:002017-09-10T04:37:36.720-07:00Kristen
I know this is an older post but one thin...Kristen<br /><br />I know this is an older post but one thing that stood out to me when I re-read this. You indicate that Joe Smith immediately discounted your interpretation of what "bearing fruit" means. That this was <b>immediate</b> vs. say going back and doing some pondering including hopefully a Berean study speaks a lot. Apparently Joe Smith wasn't even considering your different view. <br /><br />The immediate speaks volumes and perhaps shows the character of Maranatha where no type of input could go up "the chain" but was only allowed to go down. Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01527099698623190200noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-68569950335928304102016-04-01T08:17:39.618-07:002016-04-01T08:17:39.618-07:00I had the misfortune to be a part of MCM 1984-86. ...I had the misfortune to be a part of MCM 1984-86. It certainly warped my thinking.<br /><br />Surprisingly though I found the no dating policy a relief. Of course the policy is way to authoritarian but I didn't mind it at the time. As an immature 19 year old the burden of dating etc was taken out of my hands. I couldn't date even if I wanted to.<br /><br />DBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15440149021206089715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-49748921362135339632015-04-07T11:58:00.807-07:002015-04-07T11:58:00.807-07:00HI Kristen I was in MCM from 1978-1982 and became ...HI Kristen I was in MCM from 1978-1982 and became a minister before quoting in despair. I had a similar encounter (well three or four) with Joe Smith. Joe would be wearing a cardigan sweater and give you that warm Uncle Like Smile as he led one deeper into the spiritual "you must earn it" morass of MCM. <br /><br />I remember after one such encounter with Bob Weiner and one of his minions where I questioned "why am I actively leading people into this" and then made the decision- I am out. And I never looked back. But your post is right on- idealistic young people can be easy prey...<br /><br />Thank you for your post- look forward to reading the rest of your blogAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-45020112602040090012014-04-05T19:17:37.567-07:002014-04-05T19:17:37.567-07:00That's sweet of you, Living Liminal! Welcome ...That's sweet of you, Living Liminal! Welcome to the Spiritual Abuse Survivors Blog Network-- your blog looks really interesting!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-68558592761852121762014-04-04T20:33:13.505-07:002014-04-04T20:33:13.505-07:00Kristen, I have recently become a member of the SA...Kristen, I have recently become a member of the SASBN and found your blog through that. I really appreciated your words and have re-posted this at my blog, Living Liminal http://livingliminal.blogspot.com.au/.Living Liminalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972983087412105742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-73119871915909536672012-08-24T09:16:16.117-07:002012-08-24T09:16:16.117-07:00Thanks, Grace! I'm writing a number of things,...Thanks, Grace! I'm writing a number of things, but not a memoir. But I appreciate your kinds words very much!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-30459501609755597392012-08-23T16:33:50.686-07:002012-08-23T16:33:50.686-07:00Wow, Kristen. Great post.
Fear is a very insidio...Wow, Kristen. Great post. <br /><br />Fear is a very insidious thing, isn't it? If we don't talk about it then we won't have to admit the fact that even "men of God" can "fall in to sin." It's so much "easier" to be ignorant and believe the best about people, especially those in authority. <br /><br />I think many people believe that talking about these types of things is gossip and is forbidden. When I went to church back in the 80s, the leaders allowed a child molester to work in the Sunday school. I think they were just ignorant, not malevolent. I had heard rumors but believed that the leaders would NEVER allow such a thing. But leaders are vulnerable too. They're not infallible and sometimes they're downright foolish. Jesus is the only infallible one. <br /><br />Thank you for sharing your experiences with Maranatha. I was living in Portland at that time and vaguely remember the name. I'm so glad God's love broke through your leader's ignorance and supplied you with the comfort you were so desperate for. <br /><br />I admire you for speaking with Mr. Smith directly. Your superb recounting here makes my blood boil. Spiritual abuse and emotional manipulation are so devastating, especially to someone young and impressionable. I can't help but feel angry for how you were abused.<br /><br />You're a wonderful writer. Are you working on a memoir? GRACE PETERSONhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04520343332670354262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-76375738427418251412012-08-17T15:41:51.424-07:002012-08-17T15:41:51.424-07:00That is okay, Kristen.
To Anonymous: This doesn&#...That is okay, Kristen.<br /><br />To Anonymous: This doesn't apply to women as much, but there are secular programs that can help guys out better than those Christian dating "aids". <br /><br />Examples of these are David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating and Carlos Zuma's materials. <br /><br />Now, they can be too worldly, and they seem to encourage sex too much(although in the Bible, the word Fornication doesn't really mean what people think it means). <br /><br />However, their materials help guys get over their insecurities and help them be more confident around the opposite sex. <br /><br />Also, in Carlos's case, he doesn't encourage the whole "pickup artist" thing. He encourages guys to go up and start conversations with women by being yourself, not putting on a show. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-11209653448025751672012-08-17T11:06:43.505-07:002012-08-17T11:06:43.505-07:00JBsptfn:
I apologize. I guess it was that thing ...JBsptfn:<br /><br />I apologize. I guess it was that thing I've read about where when the brain doesn't recognize a pattern, it invents one!<br /><br />Both of you: Very true. :)Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-21499286424663841922012-08-17T07:52:39.794-07:002012-08-17T07:52:39.794-07:00Hi,
I wrote the first comment here. Back again!
...Hi,<br /><br />I wrote the first comment here. Back again!<br /><br />I agree very strongly that the whole I Kissed Daing Goodbye thing is all about controlling th eoutcome, and it's so damaging. I went to a church that really emphasised a similar idea to the ones Josh Harris promotes in the book. It felt like when you dated someone it was almost as if you were engaged. Really stifling. Everything was super serious and no fun at all, and ultimately did not protect anyone's hearts, least of all mine. It's interesting that both atheists and some parts of Chritianity think of God as a vending machine. Some churches just want to set up lots of systems and lots of controls, but you can't contain the work of God or people's spirits that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-84603543192758738922012-08-16T22:50:57.869-07:002012-08-16T22:50:57.869-07:00Kristen,
To let you know, my name isn't Just...Kristen, <br /><br />To let you know, my name isn't Justin. My username is JBsptfn. <br /><br />I also agree totally with that comment. Dating is a thing that young people can be insecure about. Books like Joshua Harris's and what Maranatha had only make things worse, not better. <br /><br />One time, in my early-20's, when I told my Pastor that I liked a girl(she was in one of my classes, not in church), he told me I needed to be confident. That was it. That is better advice than some of those overly conservative books and programs can give you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-20449656546461276792012-08-16T16:22:44.461-07:002012-08-16T16:22:44.461-07:00Justin,
Hi! Yes, I post sometimes on Doxa.
It i...Justin,<br /><br />Hi! Yes, I post sometimes on Doxa.<br /><br />It is interesting that Maranatha Campus Ministries had a no-dating policy and a whole set of doctrines they called "The Dating Revelation" 20 years or more before Josh Harris' book. Yes, I do think that a lot of the motivation behind things like this is a desire for security-- guarantee the outcome that you'll get God's perfect choice for your spouse, so you'll never suffer pain in dating or ever have to get a divorce. But God is not a vending-machine, and there are no buttons you can push to guarantee outcomes. Trust and certainty are opposites, I think, and trust is a necessary component of faith-- and certainty does away with the need for trust.<br /><br />Phyllis -- you are so right about the "damaged goods" idea. It needs to be done away with. <br /><br />Everyone -- thanks for your lovely comments!Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-36326105912273782832012-08-14T12:58:44.448-07:002012-08-14T12:58:44.448-07:00Hi, Kristen. How are you doing. I am JBsptfn.
I t...Hi, Kristen. How are you doing. I am JBsptfn.<br /><br />I think that I saw you post on Metacrock's DOXA forums, right?<br /><br />BTW, good post. Some of those Christian College groups can be a little weird. I know. I did attend meetings of this one called BASIC(Brothers and Sisters in Christ, formerly Chi Alpha) off and on when I was in college(I didn't get too involved because my dorky brother in-law was helping out there often because he wanted to re-live his college times when he thought he was cool). <br /><br />For example, they had a local pastor come in one time to speak about dating and the opposite sex one time. He was using a verse in Timothy were it says to treat the women as sisters and the men as brothers(Paul was talking about advice for pastors and their congregation, not necessarily how you treat other people).<br /><br />This pastor was overly fundy and strange with this topic. He said something about how this woman wanted to go horseback riding with him after he was saved, and that he ran the other way. <br /><br />That crap can have an affect on young, impressionable 18-22 year old minds.<br /><br />His church is sort-of peculiar. They seem to be clique-ish, and the people aren't the friendliest. <br /><br />They made the kids in youth group use Joshua Harris's material(he wrote the book I Kissed Dating Goodbye). A former co-worker who goes to that church said that the girls were saying that they were "dating God". <br /><br />I haven't read the book, but I did read the foreword by Christian Singer Rebecca St. James. She talked about how all her friends were hurt in the dating game. I was thinking "ah, poor babies". What their problem probably was, from my experience, was that they wanted an outcome(usually marriage in Christian circles), and they weren't having fun. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-20649154329969860702012-08-13T15:32:32.059-07:002012-08-13T15:32:32.059-07:00I hope that people speaking out like you have here...I hope that people speaking out like you have here will slow and someday stop spiritual abuse. <br /><br />But, I suspect that it won't. Unfortunately. Ichoroushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14236553475822724349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-64312667119684447732012-08-10T09:41:17.193-07:002012-08-10T09:41:17.193-07:00Thanks for this. I have experienced this kind of ...Thanks for this. I have experienced this kind of thing first hand and it just leaves me with a creeped out feeling. Logic, scripture and compassion get thrown out the door, or worse, twisted to the one with authority's will. The good thing in this is that is has forced me to think deeply about what power does to a person and how best I can keep myself from doing this kind of thing myself.Justinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18400879756590964755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-91001672393022466692012-08-07T13:38:11.466-07:002012-08-07T13:38:11.466-07:00Thank you for these wise words! I have had a simi...Thank you for these wise words! I have had a similar experience where God's truth was suppressed in my life because of the words of an "authority." Thank God for healing.Laura W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04361250697594936298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-45301275479035853052012-08-05T17:08:48.333-07:002012-08-05T17:08:48.333-07:00Wow! Great insights!
Never ever let someone else...Wow! Great insights!<br /><br />Never ever let someone else convince you that you are less than another in the body of Christ.Don Johnsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-25498101314791718202012-08-05T14:10:57.312-07:002012-08-05T14:10:57.312-07:00Excellent post. Thank you.
Blaming those who are ...Excellent post. Thank you.<br /><br />Blaming those who are exposing the crime of the pastor who preyed on the underage girl sounds like a variation on the "blaming the victim" theme. That pastor needs to be exposed for the sake of the girl and for his own sake. Perhaps this will bring him to repentance. <br /><br />The incident prompting this post has also exposed another damning heresy: the so-called "spoiled fruit/strange woman" idea that allows men to prey upon little girls and women they think are "damaged goods" and then to blame the girls and women for causing the rapes/molestations or to claim the victims wanted it, too. Disturbing to say the least. Sisters in the Lord: stay as far away from extra-biblical, patriarchy/complementarianism churches as you can. <br /><br />And consider the irony: the Scriptures both old and new are laced with the metaphor of the "whore" figure "leading men astray" as the apostate Bride of Christ/people of God. Ironically, the very men who perpetrate the literal notion of damaged (female) goods that cause those same men to prey upon them are themselves part of the metaphorical "strange woman/apostate church". Because there is no hierarchical structure in the church. We are all one in Christ Jesus, no more separated by gender, race, or status. There may be different gifts and callings is all.<br /><br />Regarding the authority some in Christendom purport to hold over others reminds me of growing up in Roman Catholicism, only the way that church is structured and the way the indoctrination has perpetrated the claim of a spiritual hierarchy has been so embedded in the religion's extra-biblical proclamations since about the third century the idea has become institutionalized. Until the Spirit of God frees an individual Catholic through the truth of God's Word, it never occurs to a Catholic to question the Pope's so-called infallibility and the rights of Cardinals, Bishops, and priests over the laity. However, once a person is exposed to the truth, whatever hold centuries-old Roman Catholic "traditions" might have on a Catholic fades quickly.<br /><br />We need to continue to immerse ourselves in the Word of God.<br />Blessings,<br />PhyllisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-15943054132982577192012-08-05T07:43:04.315-07:002012-08-05T07:43:04.315-07:00So many churches are both breeding grounds for abu...So many churches are both breeding grounds for abuse and unsafe places for survivors......KatRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-7723598949145906182012-08-04T22:03:34.291-07:002012-08-04T22:03:34.291-07:00Wow. On one hand, I'm astonished at how unfair...Wow. On one hand, I'm astonished at how unfair and illogical this is- nobody is allowed to question the authority- you're automatically wrong if you disagree- but on the other hand I can actually imagine that people do make that argument.<br /><br />Thanks for writing about this- like you said, we have to bring the injustice out into the open.perfectnumber628https://www.blogger.com/profile/10303683510076315803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-61509036971775550242012-08-04T20:58:44.370-07:002012-08-04T20:58:44.370-07:00Anonymous, I'm glad the post resonated with yo...Anonymous, I'm glad the post resonated with you, but am sorry if it's because these kinds of things happened to you too.<br /><br />I hope you turn out to be incorrect about this pastor, but sadly, what you are saying may very well be the case. I do know that anyone who says such disrespectful things from the pulpit about women (I've heard some of them) is not likely to treat women with respect in his personal life either. Including this poor girl. She the age of my own daughter. It makes me so angry to think about.Kristenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08252374623355509404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7971820842270330168.post-39027967772087515832012-08-04T14:09:02.807-07:002012-08-04T14:09:02.807-07:00Your experience of Maranatha resonated with me. th...Your experience of Maranatha resonated with me. the talk of 'reacting' rather than 'responding' (ie, disagreeing rather than agreeing). The talk of 'bearing fruit' meaning 'gaining converts'. Your feelings of being a second class Christian. The realisation that *shock* your leaders can be wrong and they don't necessarily know or understand the Bible better than you. That you can hear from God, too. <br /><br />The pastor who abused that young girl is an exceptionally arrogant man; you can hear it in his preaching. I hope he's truly humbled by this but the truth is, he won't be if he is surrounded by people who minimise his responsibility for what he's done. And his followers have been trained to do just that. Chances are he'll make a show of repentance then bounce right back twice as arrogant as before now that he has proven through being disciplined to be one of God's anointed. His attitude may well be this: 'I'm so humble and contrite over what I did that I'm more holy and godly than any of you. So now I'm twice the man of God that I was and ought to have twice the power and respect that I did before'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com